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49 minutes ago, HLM said:

But it is the customers who have brought about this change, according to P&O they've listened to them and as a result the gratuity system has been scrapped, so it does involve cruisers.

Or is it now a case of we've got what we want, so now couldn't care less?

HLM.

 

Why should it involve us ( the paying passenger ) I agree with others what the crew earn is none of our business, we will now have a level playing field which I'm delighted about and as a result of that the crew 'should' be paid an acceptable wage by P&O rather than relying on gratuities, it isn't a case of people not caring now they've got what they want, the money to pay the increase in wages will come from somewhere be it an increase in fares or purchases on board but the main thing is hopefully the crew will now receive a decent wage, the amount has nothing to do with any of us it's between the employee and employer, in other walks of life 'personnel costs' come from profits so why should this be any different, we wouldn't walk into M&S and demand to know how much a cashier earns and yet in effect any purchase we make has contributed to their salary.

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I was always under the impression that on a forum if you disagreed with something you attacked the post not the poster.  Cruisers have always moaned about those who have auto gratuities removed a

If we all ignore him perhaps he will go away and not have a platform to spout is argumentative attitude.

omg its still going lol.

2 hours ago, HLM said:

But it is the customers who have brought about this change, according to P&O they've listened to them and as a result the gratuity system has been scrapped, so it does involve cruisers.

Or is it now a case of we've got what we want, so now couldn't care less?

HLM.

 

Do you show the same interest and concern for all  employees of other companies that you buy goods or services from, or do you just have the knife out for P&O?

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The fact is that we're never going to know the full ins and outs of gratuities and how they're distributed. We can only interpret what impacts us, the paying passengers. They've clearly done their due dilligence and spent time working out the right way to move forward for the cruise line. I'm sure it took a long time to reach the decision but they've gone with it so fair play to them.

It's a bold statement and certainly one that the majority of passengers will be pleased to hear. It prevents any awkward situations for passengers on board and it takes away the concern of gratuities for all.

How it will impact pricing, I don't know but like always, if you aren't happy don't book, it's as simple as that.  Vote with your feet and venture elsewhere. I suspect it won't have too much of an impact on pricing in the long-term as the booking trends certainly seemed to have changed towards last-minute rather than the early-booking trends of the past. I would imagine that the only time that isn't the case anymore is when it involves new ships such as Iona going on sale.

I don't think too much will change apart from the fact that we as passengers, when travelling with P&O, will no longer have to factor in gratuities unless we wish to do so at the end of the cruise. Either way, it puts the control in our hands and that's what many have been demanding for a longtime so why all the fuss? You can only control what you can, everything else is just noise.

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7 hours ago, towny44 said:

Do you show the same interest and concern for all  employees of other companies that you buy goods or services from, or do you just have the knife out for P&O?

I don't have the knife out for anyone, my wage structure is open to public scrutiny and I don't have a problem with it so can't see why crew or P&O would have. In fact if they were more transparent then I strongly suspect the crew would benefit.

HLM.

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38 minutes ago, HLM said:

I don't have the knife out for anyone, my wage structure is open to public scrutiny and I don't have a problem with it so can't see why crew or P&O would have. In fact if they were more transparent then I strongly suspect the crew would benefit.

HLM.

You are in a minority then, a!though whilst your pay scales might be public knowledge, I doubt that even govt depts publish individuals salaries. Most companies, other than celebrity BBC staff, don't publish salary levels, and if you are the CEO of a major company, why are you wasting shareholders money by posting on here?

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1 hour ago, HLM said:

And in that one quote you've highlighted the point I'm making.

HLM.

Always happy to help although I'm not quite sure how me saying 'hopefully the crew will now receive a decent wage' and you wanting to know how much they will be paid is making any point, had everyone paid the gratuities then the crew would have received a decent wage but it became obvious more and more people were removing them and it was the crew who suffered, anyway let's not go there 😨from next year they will be included in the fare and not before time imo.

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52 minutes ago, towny44 said:

You are in a minority then, a!though whilst your pay scales might be public knowledge, I doubt that even govt depts publish individuals salaries. Most companies, other than celebrity BBC staff, don't publish salary levels, and if you are the CEO of a major company, why are you wasting shareholders money by posting on here?

A CEO, now that is wishful thinking, my salary is published and accounted for every financial year, the paying public like you and I have the right to know how their money is being spent, can't see why it's an issue, unless of course there's something to hide.

For years on these forums people have been claiming crew are poorly paid and questioning why they are subsidising them via the auto grats system, now all of a sudden P&O abolish the autograts and claim they are going to pay a decent wage and foolhardy people believe it.

P&O were never transparent with the old system, so what's so convincing about this one, and if there's nothing to hide why don't they publish it?

I'd has it a guess that the so called poorly paid crew that lots seemed to be so concerned about will now actually be worse off with the new system than they ever were with the old one.

Time will tell.

HLM

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, *Dancing Queen* said:

Always happy to help although I'm not quite sure how me saying 'hopefully the crew will now receive a decent wage' and you wanting to know how much they will be paid is making any point, had everyone paid the gratuities then the crew would have received a decent wage but it became obvious more and more people were removing them and it was the crew who suffered, anyway let's not go there 😨from next year they will be included in the fare and not before time imo.

By saying "hopefully" suggests that you aren't sure they will actually get a decent wage, pretty self explanatory isn't it?

As I said above, time will tell.

Just to add the auto grats system was never set up to get everyone to pay, it was always discretionary and as with all such services people could openly opt out if they so wished.

Perhaps the question you need to be asking is why more and more people started to remove them, my guess is they thought the same as me that they weren't distributed fairly, and the cruiselines were profiting from them, hence the reason I opt out.

HLM.

 

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56 minutes ago, HLM said:

By saying "hopefully" suggests that you aren't sure they will actually get a decent wage, pretty self explanatory isn't it?

As I said above, time will tell.

Just to add the auto grats system was never set up to get everyone to pay, it was always discretionary and as with all such services people could openly opt out if they so wished.

Perhaps the question you need to be asking is why more and more people started to remove them, my guess is they thought the same as me that they weren't distributed fairly, and the cruiselines were profiting from them, hence the reason I opt out.

HLM.

 

I must choose my words more carefully as I didn't intend to suggest I wasn't sure, I'm sure we all have different ideas of what a decent wage is and I used 'hopefully' in that context, at least under the new system crew should be able to make a decision of whether to accept a contract based on actual ££ rather than 'potential earnings' which is how I believe P&O marketed the 'wonderful opportunities' available to them.

It doesn't really interest me why people started to remove the auto gratuities but if I was asked to speculate my guess would be they didn't want to pay the amount being deducted, I doubt it had anything to do with how it was distributed but that it is something we will never know and now don't need to, just my opinion of course and others will have theirs.

Edited by *Dancing Queen*
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1 hour ago, *Dancing Queen* said:

I doubt it had anything to do with how it was distributed

Really, you've obviously not been reading the posts here and on other forums for the past few years correctly then, the main bone of contention has predominantly always been around how they were distributed, such whether crew actually received all of them or were the cruiselines actually profited from them.

Whether you or anyone else agree or not, I'd like to know if the crew are going to benefit from this new scheme, I suspect not and actually think they'll be worse off.

Many people have claimed they've always paid autograts to ensure the crew have a decent wage, yet now they are included people don't seem to give a monkeys **ss how much they are going to earn. 

Caring people they turned out to be.

HLM.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, HLM said:

Really, you've obviously not been reading the posts here and on other forums for the past few years correctly then, the main bone of contention has predominantly always been around how they were distributed, such whether crew actually received all of them or were the cruiselines actually profited from them.

Whether you or anyone else agree or not, I'd like to know if the crew are going to benefit from this new scheme, I suspect not and actually think they'll be worse off.

Many people have claimed they've always paid autograts to ensure the crew have a decent wage, yet now they are included people don't seem to give a monkeys **ss how much they are going to earn. 

Caring people they turned out to be.

HLM.

 

 

 

I think you are now beginning to argue your case just for the sake of it and to keep the discussion going.  I have speculated in the past as to whether all the AG went to the staff, especially after P&O replied to one of my queries to them that the staff do not lose out when passengers deleted the AG, which along with the recent frequent increases suggested that the AG was probably just going into general revenue, but my concerns were irrelevant to the adequacy of staff wages.

However now that tips are no longer required it ceases to matter, P&O will continue pay their staff a wage which they deem appropriate and, like any labour market, if this is inadequate their staff will leave, leading to P&O increasing their wages if they want to keep good quality staff.  I will still tip a little extra if I feel someone has given me excellent service, and I hope that this will encourage staff to provide a higher standard of service, which I feel has declined over recent years.

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1 hour ago, HLM said:

Really, you've obviously not been reading the posts here and on other forums for the past few years correctly then, the main bone of contention has predominantly always been around how they were distributed, such whether crew actually received all of them or were the cruiselines actually profited from them.

Whether you or anyone else agree or not, I'd like to know if the crew are going to benefit from this new scheme, I suspect not and actually think they'll be worse off.

Many people have claimed they've always paid autograts to ensure the crew have a decent wage, yet now they are included people don't seem to give a monkeys **ss how much they are going to earn. 

Caring people they turned out to be.

HLM.

 

 

 

Oh I can assure you I've probably read enough tipping threads to last a lifetime, I'm quite aware 'some' people said they preferred to tip those who had looked after them and that's fine but I've always thought it rather defeated the object since all tips had to be 'pooled' anyway so the passenger in effect never had the control of who got what.

As for whether the cruiselines profited from them .. well we will never know but all companies have to account for income/profits and tbh if they were stashing away hundreds of thousands of pounds as some seem to think they were I think we might have heard about it !!

Will the crew be worse off under the new scheme ?? again who knows but at least they will know when they sign their contracts how much they will be paid in real terms and not 'potential earnings'.

I don't know why you would think people don't care it has nothing to do with not caring it's about choice and if the crew are happy with the salary being offered what has it got to do with me, you or anyone else it's between them and their employer.

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6 hours ago, towny44 said:

I think you are now beginning to argue your case just for the sake of it and to keep the discussion going.  I have speculated in the past as to whether all the AG went to the staff, especially after P&O replied to one of my queries to them that the staff do not lose out when passengers deleted the AG, which along with the recent frequent increases suggested that the AG was probably just going into general revenue, but my concerns were irrelevant to the adequacy of staff wages.

However now that tips are no longer required it ceases to matter, P&O will continue pay their staff a wage which they deem appropriate and, like any labour market, if this is inadequate their staff will leave, leading to P&O increasing their wages if they want to keep good quality staff.  I will still tip a little extra if I feel someone has given me excellent service, and I hope that this will encourage staff to provide a higher standard of service, which I feel has declined over recent years.

No need to argue my case you've just answered it,  in effect what you're saying is that P&O have been ripping off those who payed into the autograts system.

It appears they've been found out, so now they'll hide behind the "your tips are included" nonsense.

It's all well and good now saying that wages are between the crew and the employer, if that were the case why have people on here always claimed they were poorly paid and hence their reasoning for paying the auto gratuity.

How did they know they were poorly paid?

HLM.

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7 hours ago, *Dancing Queen* said:

since all tips had to be 'pooled' anyway

Really how strange! so after a lifetime of reading gratuity threads are you seriously saying that you've never read that "personal gratuities are retained by those in which they were intended"? A P&O quote and another one of the reasons I decided opted out sometime ago. 

Were they telling fibs yet again?

HLM.

 

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3 hours ago, HLM said:

No need to argue my case you've just answered it,  in effect what you're saying is that P&O have been ripping off those who payed into the autograts system.

It appears they've been found out, so now they'll hide behind the "your tips are included" nonsense.

It's all well and good now saying that wages are between the crew and the employer, if that were the case why have people on here always claimed they were poorly paid and hence their reasoning for paying the auto gratuity.

How did they know they were poorly paid?

HLM.

Because it has generally been assumed that waiters and stewards received a much lower standard wage because they received tips which others didn't, and this practise was cruise industry wide.  Recent communications, with P&O especially, now suggest that the cruise lines are paying a higher standard wage and staff are not being disadvantaged by non tippers, but of course this higher wage has had to be paid by the cruise lines and they have been maintaining the AG myth to help finance this.  All of this I assume you are fully aware of, so why you continue with these rather childish comments that passengers are now being two faced I do not understand.  

Every cruise line competes for staff and will need to pay the market price, of course if the demand for jobs is high then wage levels will be low, that's the market economy, and there is precious little we can do to change this.

 

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2 hours ago, HLM said:

Really how strange! so after a lifetime of reading gratuity threads are you seriously saying that you've never read that "personal gratuities are retained by those in which they were intended"? A P&O quote and another one of the reasons I decided opted out sometime ago. 

Were they telling fibs yet again?

HLM.

 

It depends on how you wish to interpret what P&O say, my understanding is/was that anything given to the crew over and above the daily recommended amount ( whether a reduced amount or not ) was theirs to keep and did not have to be pooled, I have always made sure that if/when we have given extra I write a personal thank you to the stewards so there is no misunderstanding who it is intended for should it be questioned by their superiors, that is how I interpret a 'personal gratuity' you obviously interpret it in another way, I think you will find any quote P&O make have a certain amount of 'spin' to them rather like a politician you never get a clear or precise answer.

Time for me to bow out of this thread, as Towny says you are beginning to argue your case for the sake of it, we all have our own opinions about 'tipping'  but hey after May 2019 it won't matter because at long last there will be a level playing field for all, whatever will we talk about then ?? ha ha maybe time for a 'smoking thread' we haven't had one of those for a while 😉

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51 minutes ago, *Dancing Queen* said:

It depends on how you wish to interpret what P&O say, my understanding is/was that anything given to the crew over and above the daily recommended amount ( whether a reduced amount or not ) was theirs to keep and did not have to be pooled, I have always made sure that if/when we have given extra I write a personal thank you to the stewards so there is no misunderstanding who it is intended for should it be questioned by their superiors, that is how I interpret a 'personal gratuity' you obviously interpret it in another way, I think you will find any quote P&O make have a certain amount of 'spin' to them rather like a politician you never get a clear or precise answer.

Time for me to bow out of this thread, as Towny says you are beginning to argue your case for the sake of it, we all have our own opinions about 'tipping'  but hey after May 2019 it won't matter because at long last there will be a level playing field for all, whatever will we talk about then ?? ha ha maybe time for a 'smoking thread' we haven't had one of those for a while 😉

I do wonder how much of what we heard and read about P&O tipping was "Urban myth" and how much was the truth,On Celebrity and RCI the staff were quite happy to confirm they get all the tips, and they were quite happy with the Auto tip system as they had not got to carry large amounts of cash about as their pay went into the bank.

We were never quite sure with P&O ,pleased for the staff ,who hopefully will get a regular decent wage, and we can always give them a bit extra🤣....Davybe

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This thread is now getting boring and very repetitive whatever the reasons are in the past P&O have made a company decision and whether they increase prices of fares/drinks to cover costs or if staff get a decent wage is between them and nobody else. If we dont like it or feel cruise prices have increased then everybody has the choice to go elsewhere. My concern has always been that my auto grats was given for the staff and nobody else and worried that P&O were siphoning off a percentage for their own needs. Now I know that auto gratuities are included in fare and if I like the price I will book and if not I will look elsewhere. Staff wages is the concern of the company and their staff and if they dont like it like anyone else they can look elsewhere for better paid jobs.

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2 hours ago, Davybe said:

I do wonder how much of what we heard and read about P&O tipping was "Urban myth" and how much was the truth,On Celebrity and RCI the staff were quite happy to confirm they get all the tips, and they were quite happy with the Auto tip system as they had not got to carry large amounts of cash about as their pay went into the bank.

We were never quite sure with P&O ,pleased for the staff ,who hopefully will get a regular decent wage, and we can always give them a bit extra🤣....Davybe

Indeed !! I can't say I have found Cunard staff to be unhappy with the system but in fairness I have never asked so it is only my opinion but I do find the crew on Cunard seem to be much happier than P&O crew.  I do have my own thoughts on why but I will keep them to myself !!

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7 hours ago, towny44 said:

Because it has generally been assumed that waiters and stewards received a much lower standard wage because they received tips which others didn't, and this practise was cruise industry wide.  Recent communications, with P&O especially, now suggest that the cruise lines are paying a higher standard wage and staff are not being disadvantaged by non tippers, but of course this higher wage has had to be paid by the cruise lines and they have been maintaining the AG myth to help finance this.  All of this I assume you are fully aware of, so why you continue with these rather childish comments that passengers are now being two faced I do not understand.  

Every cruise line competes for staff and will need to pay the market price, of course if the demand for jobs is high then wage levels will be low, that's the market economy, and there is precious little we can do to change this.

 

Are I see, so everything is based on assumptions then?

"Disadvantaged by non tippers" now that is an assumption and a half.

HLM.

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6 hours ago, *Dancing Queen* said:

It depends on how you wish to interpret what P&O say, my understanding is/was that anything given to the crew over and above the daily recommended amount ( whether a reduced amount or not ) was theirs to keep and did not have to be pooled, I have always made sure that if/when we have given extra I write a personal thank you to the stewards so there is no misunderstanding who it is intended for should it be questioned by their superiors, that is how I interpret a 'personal gratuity' you obviously interpret it in another way, I think you will find any quote P&O make have a certain amount of 'spin' to them rather like a politician you never get a clear or precise answer.

Time for me to bow out of this thread, as Towny says you are beginning to argue your case for the sake of it, we all have our own opinions about 'tipping'  but hey after May 2019 it won't matter because at long last there will be a level playing field for all, whatever will we talk about then ?? ha ha maybe time for a 'smoking thread' we haven't had one of those for a while 😉

Before posting then check what you are writing you said "ALL tips are pooled anyway" how else can one interpret it? That's at least twice in this thread where you've changed the goal posts when questioned.

Of course I'll argue my case, that's what a good clean debate is about isn't it?

HLM.

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